[Message from SH, received 20 March 2000]

you refer to satanists as "losers" who should be pitied. that sounds very christian and just plain ignorant to me. this is a personal belief of your own and not that of other atheists. i do not view satanists any different than i do christians, muslims, jews, etc. neither should any other rational free thinker. i am an atheist and would not ever consider ridiculing someone else for their beliefs. this is the same type of persecution that free thinkers have experienced over history. the loser comment is not only extremely hypocritical but is also based on NO facts. remember, the first step to ignorance begins with ignorance.

its me again. listen, do yourself and every other rational atheist a favor and get rid of your promotional idealist atheist site off the web, or at least fill it with facts not biased "unatheist" opinions. i am not defending marilyn manson, but to fill your pages with ridiculous fiction is just sad and proves to me that ignorance abounds in all beliefs, even atheism. your comments about marilyn manson sound right out of the pope's mouth. first off, manson has never said that he is a satanist. he is an open atheist. where did you get your ideas that all satanists listen to manson? mtv? the radio? your head? second, manson is a rock'n'roll band! people seem to forget this point. it is an insult to any human with reasonable intelligence, to explain how a certain rock band isn't really a bunch of satanists, but are in fact a bunch of rich rockstars who make money off their image! no shit!! and here i though manson was indeed the antichrist!!!! (sarcasm)

Wake up willet, your no different than the bullshit spewing minister who has heard his own lies year after year that he eventually believes them. nobody visiting your site wants to hear a preacher. so step down from your podium , do some research, and when you figure out what it truely means to be a free thinker, then maybe someone will care what you have to say. until then, keep living in your own reality where all the answers come oh so easily to you.

sincerely, a true free thinker, SH.

Well thank you for reading *some* of my site. Point one: who said I was a FREETHINKER™? I do not subscribe to the freethinkers club. I do not regard freethinking as being some kind of ultimate virtue. I value truth first. I acknowledge on my site in several places that I do not know the whole truth. The particular page that so upsets you also starts with a clear warning that I have NOT done my homework. I am not an academic, there is no bibliography at the bottom of the page, check it again "Here is a little guide, it has very little substance, it is just my personal perspective. I have not included a bibliography or loads of references for one simple reason, this is all written off the top of my head." I don't know how much clearer you would want that to be.

I have clearly stated that the page contains my ideas about these various types of atheists. Personal perspective. To have made it authoritative and fair to everybody would then have been a LIE. These are my views, for what, if anything, they are worth. First you criticize me for doing what I explicitly said I would do, that is, air my own perspective, no warranty express or implied, then you accuse me of being patronizing to my audience. Marilyn Manson is an act. That was exactly my point. He is not a man with a religious belief that needs to be respected. He is a gobshite. A self-parody and laughing (at his fans) all the way to the bank.

I am not a freethinker. I am not some holier than thou fair to everybody type. I have views, opinions, attitudes and I want to express them. On the Internet I can. Just like any fundamentalist of any flavour. Being an atheist has no rules. And if it did I would probably want to break some anyway. That's just the way I am.

My site is about my thoughts and beliefs, can you see any logos from organizations I represent? My site contains my views. Perhaps that makes me a freethinker after all. Who gives a shit. I don't want a label, I want a website. Thanks for the visit. Do come again.

My understanding of agnosticism is this: the agnostic position is that it is a mistake to believe something without evidence sufficent to warrant that belief. Agnosticism is not about God, but about what constitutes valid knowledge. In other words, it is an epistemological postition, not a theological one. Agnosticism is not about god, but about *faith*. Basically, it says that if the only "evidence" you have for a belief is that you believe it, then you do not really have reliable "knowlege" of the content of that belief. [PM]

"God Haters These are the mad, bad and dangerous to know crowd. They do not deny that there might be a God, they quite like the idea, they would love the opportunity to spit in his all seeing eye. Mad, bad and infinitely sad. Subsets of the God Haters are the Antichrist worshipers and the Satanists. "

The Church Of Satan are not satanists in this sense - for them, god and satan do not literally exist, satan is merely an "ideal". I was thinking of becoming a CoSer, but they believe in magik, which is stupid. 'Course, I suspect that the whole magik thing in the CoS is an elaborate put-on. The goal of "Greater Magik" is not really to acheive effects in the external world, but to "discharge emotional energy". Curses, for instance, are not about bringing literal misfortune on the object of the curse, but getting all that hatred out of your system by having an elaborate cursing ritual. So maybe they don't believe in magik as commonly understood, but If I wanted to be a member of a joke religion I'd much rather belong to the Church of the SubGenius.

But just to let you know, CoSers tend to react strongly when someone says they worship a literal satan, so you may want to mention that you are not including them in the above paragraph. [PM]

I think I understand your point about agnosticism being about belief rather than about God. Words mean what people use them to mean. There is a wider definition of agnosticism too. "I'm a bit agnostic about that" means the same as I am not sure, it requires further thought, but I can't be bothered to think about it.

I am not agnostic at all. I have opinions and views about everything. Some of them I defend. I do not think that atheism requires faith and any special kind of suspension of rationality. I see no reason why I should have to provide evidence that another person's construct does not exist. They say God exists and is the explanation of everything. I say I have the explanation of the God myth, I understand it. I also understand how the Universe came into being and how life evolved. That understanding is about as complete as my knowledge of how a computer works; err, chips, wires and things, yeah... It is not wrong, just not complete.

Church of Satan and all other churches can go screw themselves. If I cared what the members of every church thought about my site I wouldn't have one. I am not an anti-Christian I am anti-bullshit in all its forms. Deciding that Christianity is based on nonsense and then becoming a Satanist is not a very smart move.

I just came across your site (via The War Against Faith and then the Meme Machine), and so far ("Atheist Sects"), so good. But I wonder why you "respect the truly religious, and disagree with them." What does "truly religious" mean? Believers in supernaturalism are weak-minded, at best; and anyone who claims to know what God (the great mystery and self-concealer) wants is a blasphemer. Why do you respect them? Or do you mean, pretend to respect them while arguing with them?

[GA 9 June 2000]

well possibly to your suprise this is the image i am going for. i do not care to convert xians to atheism, actually that i feel is a very dangerous mission, for converted xians will many times retain their same-old belief systems, but with a mask of atheism, which degrades the quality of atheism as a whole.

no, i choose to use my imagination and flashy-images to create a haven of unholy entertainment, but obviously the core of my site focuses on my ideas on religion, society, and our personal moral duty towards mankind and out enviroment.

it hasn't been to long, perhaps 2 months since my site was just as yours is. a collection of mind-expanding essays and interesting ideas. but i saw way too many sites just like this, they all say the same thing and we don't need 3000 sites explaining simply what atheism is and why we dislike religion.

i chose to take it a step further by incorperating Satanism into my personal philosophy (Satanism as i hope you understand, is wholey atheistic, but aside from the basic to rational thought, Satanism has many views on how Satanists should interact in society. it is not a religion like the other atheistic religions (buddahism, etc) it is a religion that hates religion. if a Satanist conforms to every teaching of Anton LaVey without question, then they are not satanists. You are born a Satanist or you are not, you cannot simply convert to Satanism like other religions. why you might ask? well, Satanists all have a very specific mindset, and if you do not naturally have this view of the world, then you will obviously find Satanism to be repulsive and rediculous (as you obviously do).

i understand you opinion of my site is not too wonderful, but i hope you can now see why i chose this path. i do not care to educate the unwilling masses by forcing boring sermons on them, i will teach only those who cannot feel offended by any form of material and who are eager to learn of a new side to traditional thought.

ooo000ooo

Note: you might want to make an addition to your site including this letter on Satanism)

I've had a chance to read over a little more of your site lately and i found a few things a bit puzzling. i understand you have your own opinion of the various definitions and reasons for the many Atheistic sects, but i think you might have stepped a bit out of your circle of knowledge when it comes to Satanism. I mentioned breifly about Satanism to you in an earlier email, but your article that refers to it doesn't show the true side of satanism, but rather the outsider's view.

Satanists are extremly rational people who value equality for all humans, respect nature/animals, respect human life, encourage learnign and unbiased thought. All the same things most Atheists agree upon, all that has changed is the label. Atheism has nothing to do with reason, intellegence, equality, tolerance, etc. Atheism only deals with the absence of god(s). Unlike most religions, Satanism cannot gain converts. To be a Satanist you simply have to already have the basic traits of all Satanists (ones above and a few more). You cannot agree to change your life, just so that you can be a satanist, you must already be one and just take the label.

Of course there are god-haters who choose Satanism simply to piss off their parents and make themselves look evil, but the vast majority of satanists don't even speak of religion or their beliefs/disbeliefs. Satanists are defined solely by the way they live their lives and interact with others in society. Rarely do they dress like Goths or enjoy the music of Marilyn Manson (though that is sometimes their personal preference and if they enjoy that sort of thing then so be it).

Just wanted to clear this up.