Proud comments

Atheism
Politics
Memes
Mind
Matters
String
Random
Interact
Feedback
Email
Links
Debate
Home

Hello,

I came across your site via a link on another site (which I've forgotten). I have a question concerning your stance on pride: "Membership of any group *I have not chosen to belong to* is no source of either pride or shame."

Although I can agree with you on issues of sexuality, and having "pride" over the achievements of others, I am not sure if I object to a person having a sense of pride over, say, being an American/Mexican/Japanese citizen/etc. This deals with the issue of choice, as you point out in the above quote. My question is, isn't the fact of your continued living in that country indicative of your preference for it? Thus, though you might not have chosen to be born there, you have chosen to continue living there. So to say that you're proud to be an American is a fair assertion in that you have indeed made the choice (and continue to make the choice with every second that you continue living there.) I suppose the same can be said with the "proud to be alive" statement...

-Some bored student

Continuing to live in the country you were born in is not much of an active statement. Very few people leave their home countries. Currently 140 million people reside outside their country of birth, less than 2.25% of the world population. Do we conclude that more than 97% of the world is proud of the nation of their birth? If so, what does that mean? The proud outnumber the doubters by about 44 to 1. It rather devalues the concept of pride.

Being proud of something that you have not chosen is quite normal, it is human. There have been many psychological experiments done on groups of young people which involve arbitrarily separating them into groups and seeing what happens. Group pride happens, even when it is made crystal clear that the groups are defined on a purely abstract basis. Group hatred follows, and violence. Some of these experiments had to be stopped before children were killed.

We have a capacity to take irrational pride in group membership and to go on to use that to justify extreme actions. Without that instinct all the wonders of the world and all the wars would be impossible. What I am suggesting is that we get a grip on that instinct and try to ensure that it works for us, and it is not used as a handle so that other people can operate us for their own agendas.

Atheism | Politics | Memes | Mind | Matters | Interact | Feedback | Email | Links | Search | Debate | Home
© 1999 - 2008 by Martin Willett.
mwillett.org: Debate Unlimited