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Greetings from a fellow Dawkinsite. I am 19 years old and
live in Vienna. Kinda enjoyed your wager which is very much of something
Asimov would do. Especially the "debate" with Franc. I am also interested
in memetics, yet the whole thing is rather proto-science, as you
surely know. Do you know other resources worth reading, except from
Dawkins, Dennett and Blackmore? The Journal of memetics contains
some interesting things, yet nothing of real substance, IMO. I reckon
so does the alt.memetics newsgroup. Please inform me about anything
interesting you came across. Really good webpage you have there.
Take care and have fun feeding the trolls!
Darwinspeed to your efforts :-)
"I believe I have acted rightly in steadily following and
devoting my life to science." Charles Darwin
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Thank you for the e-mail. I really get a big kick out of messages like
this.
You're welcome.
I have just had a bad day or two at work, all the replies to my newsgroup
postings were negative and the average daily hit-count was dropping back
again. I really needed a boost to my confidence. Your message has boosted
my energy, testosterone level and my faith in the future of mankind.
I bet you say this to all unknown e-mail correspondents :-)
I wish I could give you some good tips for reading material. Memetics
is a new field for everybody and I have only been aware of the subject
and methodology for about two years in total. My interest was very modest
at first, I have been online for less than a year, in that time my interest
has increased exponentially. The problem is that I have too little time
too learn everything I want to learn while at the same time writing my
site, holding down a job with long hours and trying to keep my family
happy. I haven't even managed to read a single work by Dennett yet.
I know what you mean. BTW, Dennett is really a weird guy. His books
are really not at all about memetics :). In consciousness Explained (1991),
which is really good but leaves one with the profound feeling of "so what?",
although he said he'd "explain" something (for a philosopher, he says,
questions are more important than answers). He uses memetics as a cornerstone
of his arguments (well so he says) but it isn't mentioned very often.
The few pages where it is are great though. Read Richard Dawkins' Viruses
of the Mind (you'll probably know that already) at
viruses-of-the-mind
He develops only one paragraph of Denett into a magna opus. Denetts
94 book Darwin's Dangerous Idea is really good, but even less about
memetics (at least explicitly). It is a great work about the Darwinian
process. Rather long, but worth it. His latest book "Kinds of Minds" is
supposedly about what philosophers got wrong about Darwin's Dangerous
Idea. It is supposedly correcting mistakes no sane person would or could
make. Oh well. Stay away from that. The interesting thing is that the
alt.memetics community thinks highly of Dennett and doesn't often mention
Blackmore, while Dawkins treats the Meme Machine as if it were "his" books
(that honour goes only to Sagan's Demon Haunted World apart from Blackmore).
I met Dawkins at the Viennese "Mendel lecture". Together with a friend
of mine, who has got his equivalent of a-levels just now, I managed to
lure him into my old school on the next day. He answered questions there
for 2 hours or more. It was a great experience.
The fact that memetics is proto-science is what is so attractive to me.
Here is a new field of knowledge and analysis that is still in it's infancy.
It is actually possible for a man who sells dishwashers and microwave
ovens most of the week to introduce new ideas into an emerging science.
I couldn't expect to dabble in particle physics but I can dabble in memetics.
Exactly. My own feeling is that the next breakthrough will come
from somebody with a background in computer sciences, though.
I will be putting up a list of books that I have found stimulating onto
my site at some time. It is one of about ten ideas I am working on at
the moment.
Vienna is one of the few places I have travelled to. I won a weekend
holiday to Vienna when my wife was expecting our first child. I found
it a very civilized place, clean and tidy but you have terrible drivers,
Yep, that's us :-)
apart from driving on the wrong side of the road they also seemed to
be much more aggressive than drivers in Britain, Germany or the USA. I
liked your food, wine and beer. My wife will always remind me of how cold
the water was in the hotel room even in summer. When we go to drink water
in the summer here we often remark that we wish it was as cold as in Vienna.
Yeah, our water is simply the best. About half of the problems
with the EU were about our paranoia we'd have to share it (No way!!!).
That is, before even more attention was wasted on that nuisance Haider.
The man's too dumb too even breathe: In a TV discussion, he once quoted
a report to the European Council about the situation of the far right
in Europe. It was something like "In Germany, there are small groups of
Neo-Nazis which are badly organized. In Austria, such groups do not exist
" So that shows that there is no extreme right in
Austria, doesn't it? Well, the next sentence of that report is: "That
is because in Austria, such groups are absorbed by Haider's FPOE". No
comment. Haider handles the media incredibly good, though.
Best Regards, Andreas a.k.a. Darwinian
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Thank you for your message. I'm sorry to be boring and predictable
but I have simply got to express my admiration for your use of English.
You are definitely in the top 10% of all my e-mail correspondents
as far as use of English goes. Much better than most Americans.
Have you got a secret? In would love to know how you do it.
I'm not sure if you have seen it but I have put a page on my site
about English becoming the official language of man. terran1.htm
I would love some feedback on the idea from somebody from a country
that does not use English as its first language. I learned French
at school but not very well. There was never any reason for me to
learn it, I lacked motivation. I am quite sure that if I had a reason
to learn it I would have become fluent.
I have only travelled abroad twice, both times for only a short
stay, both holidays won in competitions at work. I only learned
enough to thank waiters and ask for the number of my room key. On
both occasions I was very impressed with Austria and Germany. I
have a cousin called Andreas. My uncle, Barrie Willett, learned
German at Birmingham university and went to live in Berlin (West
Berlin at the time). He married two German women (consecutively)
and raised two families of German children, they were not taught
English at home by their bilingual parents. My uncle Barrie is the
coolest of my older relatives, he looks very like my father but
younger and he smiles more. He works as an interpreter translating
English, German and Turkish and probably other languages too.
I have always been a bit of a big kid, when I was in my late twenties
I had an urge to go skateboarding again like I had done a bit at
school, my uncle Barrie borrowed my board and fell and broke his
wrist. My dad would never had done that, too straight laced, he
doesn't swear or get drunk.
Haider is the only Austrian ever mentioned in the British media.
For most English people Austria is just somewhere to go to ski.
I have never had enough spare money to do it and now I'm too unfit
to start.
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I apologize for not having replied earlier. I spent two weeks
in Italy, relaxing. The weather was fairly bad, but hey, one can
get by with excellent food, playing bridge for hours and reading
Doug Hofstadter's marvellous book Gödel, Escher, Bach. :-)
Thank you for your message.
" I'm sorry to be boring and predictable
but I have simply got to express my admiration for your use of
English. You are definitely in the top 10% of all my e-mail correspondents
as far as use of English goes. Much better than most Americans.
Have you got a secret? I would love to know how you do it."
Why, thank you very much. You cannot bore me with compliments,
yet I'm afraid I am the one who is predictable: if there is a secret,
it's simply reading a lot. I do not mean the stuff that teachers
use to suffocate you in.
What use is reading Shakespeare if you are not in the mood
(if only it were Shakespeare; more likely it's "The teenage problems
of Alice" or something of that kind). Learning a language (especially
English, which is all around you to begin with) is really not that
difficult. The trick is to find authors you like, watch television
programs you like and talk to people you like talking to. Then one
automatically starts thinking in that language (although at first
it will be like babytalk for the most part). That was the first
step for me, not the last (which is what most teachers tell you).
I am at a complete loss as how to learn a language in any other
way. I also "learned" French in school, at which I am doing very
badly.
Most of the time it was expected to memorize "Rosetta stones"
(as I call them). Learning vocabularies by heart. I think this is
complete nonsense. I really fail to see why Cryptography would help
anyone at learning a language. Maybe at deciphering (dubbing it
into your mother tongue). Certainly not at learning it. I think
that is the reason why people in non-English speaking countries
are having trouble using proper English in everyday life as opposed
to professional life (you'd be surprised to how good even elderly
people speak English at lectures, while almost no-one attends English
cinema, although the Original versions are always superior. Why,
I even watch French movies, although I don't get every third word
or so.)
Of course I learned the basics of English in school. After
that, it was mainly a nuisance. I am grateful to my teachers, though,
since they let me have my way. They even let me choose Douglas Adams'
"The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy" as my special topic
for my matura (equivalent to your A-levels).
Most people do not take my rantings seriously and think
that the current system is fine. I find it curious that the most
successful school for learning languages is Berlitz, whose method
is simply to begin medias in res. Start talking. No memorization
of grammar or vocabularies. I also have found someone, with a little
more credentials than I have, who holds rather similar views on
education: Roger Schank.
If you are interested, a lot of his articles are online
schank
That's enough ranting about education. Thank
you for having stayed with me.
"I'm not sure if you have seen it but I have put a page
on my site about English becoming the official language of man.
I would love some feedback on the idea from somebody from a country
that does not use English as its first language. "
Actually, I have read most if not all of your articles. I
am spending way too much time online ... Anyway, I found it refreshing
to find somebody who really questions things. Most people I know
just assume that anything has a valid raison d'être which
would become apparent once one spends more time with it (which they
usually don't.) What an attitude! One may never be wrong, but what
use is that if one is never right, either. One isn't even consistent,
since there is no way to deal with, say, people who maintain that
Genetic Engineering is extremely dangerous and some white-bearded
Professor who says he understands and respects fears but the situation
is really not that bad. Everybody must have a point? Well, they
can't.
I can agree with your articles, for
the most part, notwithstanding some points which I would have preferred
to state in a different way. There is only one thing so far which
I think is downright wrong: In your article "Crazed
jottings" you state that "Glass is the perfect material for
windows. It is a terrible material for walls. Glass lets light in
and allows heat through. In summer a glass building is far too hot.
In winter you cannot afford to heat it." Actually, glass is
a rather good insulator, easily one of the best. I'm pretty positive
on this one, I have listened to, and even participating in, rather
long discussions about heating houses in general and the type of
house that doesn't require heating at all in particular (I think
in English that would be a self-sustaining house, I'm not sure).
One of my colleagues in the army is a lawyer who just got
his degree, another one actually makes a living at construction
work (as some kind of manager). The three of us were doing the work
of one, on second thought, there wasn't any work to be done except
kissing the boots of our commanding officer (which we didn't. There
are times when it's great to have a lawyer nearby). Jürgen, the
lawyer, got interested in a lot of stuff to bridge the time between
getting shouted at in the morning and having dinner in the early
afternoon: Kendo (Japanese swordfighting), Guns and knives, and
self-sustaining houses. The latter was just perfect for endless
discussions between Jürgen, who learned about self-sustaining houses
in books and Herbert, who has experience with real construction
work and pretty much scoffed at the very idea of self-sustaining
houses, which are to expensive for even a lawyer to afford. But
I digress. Glass is a great insulator (which is why a self-sustained
house can store heat during the summer and slowly give it off in
winter, which is why it doesn't require heating, which is why one
breaks even after a few decades, centuries at most. Still, a neat
idea). Problem is, the space between the frame and the wall usually
lets heat pass through. That is either solved by having the whole
wall made of glass (don't worry, you will break even in maybe two
decades, notwithstanding the salary of the window-wipers) or by
actually thinking when mounting the window-frame into the wall (which,
according to Herbert, Construction workers never do as a rule. They
are also not interested at all in your future gas or electricity
bills).
If you are assured that your house is well insulated thanks
to the numerous insulation chambers that solve the problem of fitting
your windows to your walls, then bear in mind that if one insulation
chamber doesn't help you much (which it does) then more of them
won't help you either (says Herbert who scoffs at insulation chambers)
... I will stop here for risk of boring you, please be assured that
I could go on like this for days (we did).
"I learned French at school but not very well. There was
never any reason for me to learn it, I lacked motivation. I am
quite sure that if I had a reason to learn it I would have become
fluent."
When in Austria, do not let on that you are impressed with
Germany (except maybe in the western regions. Traitors!)
Your piece about your Uncle reminds me of my grandmother.
Great women, still going strong at 86. She was raised in rather
bourgeois surroundings in Hungary. She was forced to flee to Austria
with her three children after the Soviets quelled the Hungarian
revolution. She lost everything, started to work like a madman and
having arrived here with little or no knowledge of the German language,
before too long she was teaching German (as well as Russian, English,
Hungarian, I think French too). Today she still works as an Interpreter.
Thanks to our mind-bogglingly stupid and therefore immensely
successful campaigns of our tourism industry, the world thinks of
Austria as a place where Kangaroos are skiing down snowy hills while
locals are sitting in a café addressing each other as "Herr Graf".
Well, this was rather long. I would love to hear from you
again in the future.
Yours, Andreas (a.k.a. Darwinian)
"I believe I have acted rightly in steadily following and
devoting my life to science." Charles Darwin
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The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy!
That takes me right back, to 1978 I think, I caught it the first
time around as the original radio series. I can still hear the signature
tune in my head. That was one of the finest pieces of writing ever,
any language, any genre. It has had a big effect on the way I think.
Surreal, lateral thinking and full of irony and humour. OK, he got
bits badly wrong. Especially Marvin the "manic depressive" robot.
He wasn't ever manic. Severely depressed with a justified sense
of paranoia, hardly surprising, brain the size of a planet and they
ask him to open the airlock, it's natural that he won't enjoy it.
Do you have any English word processors? Word processors with English
spell checks? I am not hinting that you can't spell, as I put it
before you do better than most of the Americans who write to me,
but everybody makes mistakes, as the hedgehog said as he climbed
off the hairbrush... I have a huge collection of CD ROMs with free
demonstration software on them. Several of them have fully functioning
word processors with spell checkers on them, if you could use it
I will gladly post one to you. I even have them with spell check
and grammar check as well. That might be a good tool to refine your
English further, a teacher who never tires of correcting you. Just
a thought.
I know what you mean about learning language through books some
teacher thinks will be worthy and stimulating. Chicks stuff. OK,
Shakespeare could write quite well but his stuff is of its time,
old fashioned language and heavy going even for modern native English
speakers. Any thing more than 150 years old takes an effort to read.
I found Darwin very easy, John Stuart Mill was readable too but
most stuff earlier than that, unless in a modern translation, is
hard to read. The fundamentalists favourite King James Bible is
very hard to understand easily as it has been translated between
languages and eras with various degrees of inaccuracy.
You didn't say if you agreed with me about English becoming the
universal language of man. Naturally I am a little biased. I found
learning English was childsplay. Do you think there should be a
universal language, should it be a second language for everybody
or should everybody learn one common first language?
You must be a pretty weird person if the only thing you disagree
with me about is glass walls. You must be as weird as me.
Things I like about Austria and Germany:- everything is free, attractive
women ask you if you want drinks every few minutes, they smile at
you even when you are drunk and loud....hey, maybe that is just
because I was on holiday? Possibly. But anyway I really enjoyed
both my short stays and I liked the people I met. I suppose they
were a self-selected sample of the more intelligent and anglophone
people but I got the distinct impression that in comparison to the
civilized parts of Europe England is not that special. We just have
the advantage of speaking the same language as the USA. But that
is like saying Earth is an unremarkable planet, apart from the fact
that it is inhabited.
Or apart from that Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?
Would you have any objection to me putting this stuff on my site?
I just cut and paste, only removing the odd particularly personal
bit. I'll wait until there is a little more material. Let me have
it; anything that is remotely relevant to the stuff on the site
already. If I know that the stuff is going to appear on the site
later I can write as much as I feel like, without feeling guilty
about wasting time. I don't have a lot of spare time each week but
I enjoy writing. In many ways letter writing is easier than writing
pages, I just write to the person but I also know that some other
people may well be acting as voyeurs as well. But I don't have to
worry too much about what they think, they are jus t looking in.
[ If I do put your stuff on the site would you want me to correct
any spelling mistakes for you or leave it as I receive it? I sometimes
correct a few mistakes that Rob makes, and some of mine that I did
not spot first time around. I find it is better for the webpage
to reply as a full letter rather than a paragraph at a time, this
gives me the chance to come up with new subject headers each time
too, these usually don't end up on the site but they can be funny.]
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I was in a rather weird mood when writing that letter. Thanks
for answering. To start with, you can use any material I write to
you for publication, provided only you don't deliberately quote
me out of context, which I'm certain you wouldn't do. It follows
that you are free to correct spelling mistakes or even sentence
structure and snip at will.
Speaking of spelling mistakes, no, I do not have a Spellchecker,
except the one that came with winword, which is done by Microsoft
and therefore creates worse problems than it solves. I would gladly
talk about anything you care to discuss, so talking about the prospects
of a world language would be fine at the moment (I only indirectly
alluded to that in my previous letter when ranting about education).
I have reread your article on world language and, while heartily
agreeing that a planetary culture is highly desirable, I am less
convinced that language will take us all the way. Not that it couldn't,
I'm just not convinced that English will reach fixation in the memepool
(to take the analogy to genetics a bit too far).
I'd like to see that, yet I don't expect it. Why? Think of
family names. It was once fashionable to believe that all surnames
will become extinct except one. The logic was, since new names don't
come into existence but old ones may die out (with a probability
of 1/4 in a family with two children), it was only a matter of time
before all would vanish but one. That logic is fallacious. Several
surnames may coexist for ever. There may be a finite probability
for each name to disappear within a generation, but that probability
may become infinitely small; I'm not well versed with the mathematical
concept of infinity, sufficient to say that this is undoubtedly
true for, say, the next few centuries. Similarly, while the number
of different languages has fallen dramatically and English is constantly
on the rise, that doesn't mean that it will ever dominate the "language
pool", let alone anytime soon.
Spanish is also a highly versatile language, arguably more
beautiful and as easy to learn as English (not that beauty is necessarily
conducive to a language's prospects, think of Latin versus Greek).
Russian and Chinese (Northern version) are at least holding on to
their positions, as far as I know. So while English will win a few
more easy victories (especially in the business world), I think
it's expansion will slowly decline and come to a halt.
Think of South-America. While probably more and more people
will learn to speak English, I can't really imagine them dropping
Spanish altogether (like in the brilliant movie "Starship Troopers").
English may invade their workplaces, it will not invade their homes.
On the other hand, Spanish is on the rise in the US. Who can say
whether it will become the second official language over there?
As far as Europe is concerned, French will prove to be as
difficult to get rid of as the HI-Virus. Speaking for Austria, young
people often use a (degenerated) version of English, yet I am sceptical
whether English can establish itself as a real opponent to German,
let alone vanquish it. So will there be a divided world maybe with
Hispanics as 2nd rate citizens (like they are presented as in the
US)? I'd like to think not, since a planetary culture does not necessarily
depend on a planetary language. While I think of the world's numerous
languages as a nuisance and, using Denett's terminology, an essentially
QWERTY phenomenon (your keyboard being the way it is since adjacent
keys were subject to jam in ancient keyboards), I was mildly surprised
of the reply Richard Dawkins gave me when I asked him to comment
on a thesis of Susan Blackmore's book: That plenty of old memes
which were transmitted essentially from parent to child are giving
way to new ones better equipped to deal in a world were horizontal
meme transmission is ubiquitous, the world's meme pool becoming
more uniform as a result. He said that it would make him rather
sad to see all the old stories even the myths to die out. In a way
he's right. So I'm looking forward to seeing a multilingual future;
Dawkins' books are translated into many languages, after all ;-)
See you. Andreas
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I am not predicting that English will
become the language of man I am suggesting that it should.
To get a universal human culture is going to be very difficult,
to do it with a multitude of languages is going to be that much
harder. I hear a lot of people go on about McDonalds, Coca-Cola
and MTV taking over the world culture and reducing it, making it
weaker and worthless. I disagree.
Globalization is allowing us to learn from all cultures. The better
parts of the culture survive. In England there is a vanishing culture
typified by the Mayday celebrations that my father has been involved
in since he was a boy.
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My grandfather Richard Willett (Big Dick Willett) leading
one of his beloved horses in Knutsford's May Day parade.
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My father, aged 12, Crown Bearer, Knutsford Mayday, 1947.
Why in a kilt??? And who nicked the crown?
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But it is a hollow culture, the symbols of ancient pagan rites
are so weakened and distorted that they would not be recognized
by a real English pagan. And all the modern new age pagans are just
a bunch of hippies who have reinvented ancient traditions in exactly
the same way as the people of Knutsford reinvented their Mayday
celebrations with revivals of traditions that were dead. There is
no deep significance in any of it, just an excuse to have a big
fun-fair visit the town.
Languages divide people. Just look at Belgium or Canada. Peaceful
nations at peace with themselves but still dividing bitterly over
language issues. A common language helps unite people. Just look
at England, Wales, Scotland, The USA, Australia, New Zealand etc.
There have been relatively few wars between people who speak the
same language, and far more long term alliances across national
divides not complicated by language differences. Once language groups
have united into nations they have a tendency to stay together,
even if they required wars to unite them in the first place e.g.
Italy and Germany.
This thesis is on shaky ground, I know, as there are a lot of
exceptions, but I think that the balance of evidence is just about
in favour of the assertion that language barriers encourage more
conflict than they avoid. I want to see a united world in which
every man thinks of every man as his neighbour.
To turn around the Christian fundamentalist's often asked question,
what would Jesus do? Do you really think Jesus would tell
people to stick to their nations and unite against the foreigner?
Would Jesus approve of a welfare state alongside an anti-immigration
policy? Every man is your neighbour. If there should be a welfare
state it should be universal, it should take in the whole world.
That is my suggestion. A single state, a welfare state, taking in
every man. (I use man to include woman and child, I hate feminist
language and I hate the term human being).
I see a unified language culture as a good step in that desirable
direction, and I see English as being the best available candidate
for the job of universal language. My plan for the medium term would
be for Britain to go to the European Union and make a deal. We would
offer a virtual unconditional surrender. We dump the pound, imperial
measurement, the royal family, the City of London, the Sellafield
nuclear plant, the British nuclear deterrent and opposition to laws
on the ingredients in sausages and chocolate. We would allow every
school in Britain to be named after a Frenchman and turn every pub
into a bistro. Just one little concession in return, make English
the one and only official European language.
That would be it. Britain would fling itself fully into Europe
and be at the heart of it. That would be a wonderful future for
Britain, for Europe and for humanity. A new identity would grow
up in Europe that was an amalgamation of all the best features of
European culture. The USA would be asking to join within a generation.
I would not like to see German, French or even Welsh die out, just
to resume a secondary role. I think a bilingual education would
be best for most people. Teach all children two languages from as
early an age as possible in order that they become fluent in both,
able to both talk and think in either language. If I had to choose
an extra language to learn myself I think I would choose German.
A language that sounds like swearing all the time. A language in
which you can express any sentiment, and usually in a single word.
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